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User avatar   Skilled Modder Skilled ModderMember since: 12.02.2008, 15:34Posts: 640Location: Turkey-Ankara Likes: 150
 

 Post Topic: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 31.07.2014, 22:18 
Hello people. The twitch stream of Epic has just finished and if my ears haven't betrayed me they announced that as of Unreal Engine 4.5 they will switch over to LPG ( Light Propagation Volumes) which is basically the same method CryEngine uses.

I couldn't believed and searched around a bit. Looks like the feature is already existent as a WIP in current builds. But it is still being developed as now.
They announced 4.4 Preview version just now. So within 2 months or so there will be a serious punch from Epic.

So what do you gıuys say ?



  Trainee TraineeMember since: 24.10.2013, 01:49Posts: 116 Likes: 41
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 31.07.2014, 23:05 
Link?
User avatar   Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 17.10.2011, 22:44Posts: 1516Location: Greece Likes: 249
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 31.07.2014, 23:12 
Yes it is a wip and those in github access could see it a bit, We were aware of this since we were using it in beta, They had it marked as experimental. As far as i know it was planned to be released, Now seems the time.


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User avatar   Trained Modder Trained ModderMember since: 20.04.2009, 10:12Posts: 206Location: Earth Likes: 3
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 31.07.2014, 23:22 
I think that that is **** great. I have so many issues with the CryEngine, crashing all the time even when I close the program and get no answers or support from the forums and now they want to charge a subscription fee? WTF?. I know for sure that there is REAL documentation for the Unreal Engine, tons of videos tutorials and such. The only reason I have used the CryEngine is for the lighting. Since Crytek doesn't care about the folks that use the their Engine just the money, I totally welcome Unreal Engine!!! Unreal is the Engine I studied while in school years ago, and to think I wasted my time using the CryEngine for my Graduate project, I now find laughable...

POWER TO UNREAL!!!
User avatar   Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 25.05.2013, 16:44Posts: 1251 Likes: 140
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 31.07.2014, 23:24 
Quote by kakubot:
I think that that is **** great. I have so many issues with the CryEngine, crashing all the time even when I close the program and get no answers or support from the forums and now they want to charge a subscription fee? WTF?. I know for sure that there is REAL documentation for the Unreal Engine, tons of videos tutorials and such. The only reason I have used the CryEngine is for the lighting. Since Crytek doesn't care about the folks that use the their Engine just the money, I totally welcome Unreal Engine!!! Unreal is the Engine I studied while in school years ago, and to think I wasted my time using the CryEngine for my Graduate project, I now find laughable...

POWER TO UNREAL!!!



Not looking to start a conflict here,but I never really experienced all those crashes people are complaining about,anyway if Unreal uses the same lighting system I might give it a spin again.


"There is no book or teacher to give you the answers,to show you the path.Choose your own way! Do not follow me,or anyone else"

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User avatar   Trained Modder Trained ModderMember since: 15.08.2012, 10:38Posts: 207 Likes: 29
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 01.08.2014, 02:27 
Keep Competing is always a good thing......
User avatar   Trained Modder Trained ModderMember since: 15.08.2012, 10:38Posts: 207 Likes: 29
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 01.08.2014, 02:34 
i have looked some of their demo image, seems they get rid of the light leaking thing ,which is good.
User avatar   Trained Modder Trained ModderMember since: 08.09.2004, 00:14Posts: 225Location: netherlands Likes: 33
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 01.08.2014, 02:50 
Ok Ok,
I tryed Unreal and....
very good video tutorials, and very good oculus rift support, great overal enthousiasm.

but....

Time of day editor?
Stable framerate?
Fooliage rendering?

Today I heard that Crytek staff members have worked there arse off (and I really believe thats true) so I think we should point at the right people (its not Crytek staff).

I think it is upper management.

Now lets celebrate the arrival of the oculus dk2 (whitch is absolutely a dev kit)

And will have official Crytek support soon ;)
......
Today I had a glimpse of my own game world trough the oculus DK2.

I can honestly tell all of you...

Its weird!
User avatar   Hardcore Modder Hardcore ModderMember since: 17.12.2011, 08:44Posts: 865 Likes: 22
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 01.08.2014, 04:44 
Quote by game_master_jodan:
Ok Ok,
I tryed Unreal and....
very good video tutorials, and very good oculus rift support, great overal enthousiasm.

but....

Time of day editor?
Stable framerate?
Fooliage rendering?

Today I heard that Crytek staff members have worked there arse off (and I really believe thats true) so I think we should point at the right people (its not Crytek staff).

I think it is upper management.

Now lets celebrate the arrival of the oculus dk2 (whitch is absolutely a dev kit)

And will have official Crytek support soon ;)
......
Today I had a glimpse of my own game world trough the oculus DK2.

I can honestly tell all of you...

Its weird!


Incase you dont know, there's no need for TOD editor if you could easily spin the light or use UE example tod blueprint.

Foliage rendering?
You mean the shading? https://www.dropbox.com/s/fvu7e1mb7rkut ... ghting.jpg yes its possible to make a good one and another good news is the creator of the shader shared the breakdown so everyone could have the same shader. You can find it in ue forum

Stable framerate? You have all the options you need to increase your fps from view dist to shadow quality


The thing about cryengine is that crytek is not really ready for engine business, the engine got updated less than UE, the support(for some people) is bad. There are too much surprisse last may, they didnt bring much to the EaaS. It felt like they just want to compete with UE without the ability to compete. In simpler word, Cryengine's state is like early access right now, but who knows it might be able to be ten times better


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User avatar   Trainee TraineeMember since: 18.01.2014, 12:36Posts: 112Location: Gangnam, Seoul, Korea Likes: 36
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 01.08.2014, 06:48 
Where did you hear that? I`m working on a small mobile project using UE4. I post comments in UE threads every now and then.
As far as I know, currently they have no plan to improve their LPV.


a reply from one of the UE devs =>
07-21-2014, 06:01 PM #14
DanielW DanielW is offline
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Currently the rendering team is focusing on parallel rendering, which means the splitting up of CPU side rendering work so that it can be processed on multiple cores. This is a big task so it's taking a lot of our time and it's important to drawing lots of anything (objects, foliage, shadows, etc) on PC and consoles.

I know this is not the answer you guys are looking for, just trying to be transparent. This push will take a few months, hopefully we can get back to working on dynamic lighting features after that. It may not come in the form of LPV improvements.

My opinion=>
Crytek dropped LPV for a reason. UE4 now has distance field ambient occlusion, which is basically AO based on distance, not screen space. It is rather expensive on GPU, but it works quite well.
For a game like Fortenight, which has a cartoonish look and doesn`t have many in-game objects, it works very well. But as soon as you put in more dynamic objects(like 20~30 in a room), you will notice a huge frame rate drop. There is no workarounds. You either have to design a level where you don`t see many dynamic objects at a time, or you have to bake everything for performance.

Of course, no GI method can beat baking performance-wise. If you want performance, baking is the way to go.
But, if you want a realistic-looking game, you can`t just have an empty room with a few objects laying around.
You`re going to want to fill it with your models that you have made for years.
In UE, the default lightmap resolution is 64. For something like walls or doors, which doesn`t have a complex contour, you can lower it down to 32, or 16 where lighting condition change is not drastic. But for small complex objects, like phones, computers, or chairs, you can`t go lower than 64. 64 would be the minimum.

In the best case scenario, you would have 20~30 megabytes for one room. If you make everything dynamic, the frame rate, when lit, will be horrible(I`m not exaggerating here). So, you have no choice but to bake everything.

And,, the foliage shader screen shots you posted above,,, well,, I tried most of foliage shaders people have posted over the months. When you actually try it, it won`t look as good. Those screen shots were taken in a certain direction and brightness. As soon as you rotate your camera and move around, it won`t look good.
And it is too expensive for production. The recent one I tried had like 150 instructions,,,,
All UE demos use emissive materials for foliage shaders.

Their CSM(cascaded shadow maps) is still not comparable to Cryengine`s. You can set the view distance rage from 2000 to 5000. Anything out of that range won`t look good( visual popping will be too great).
In most cases, you would want to have baked shadows. It is one of those things that looks great on the surface, but when you actually try it, it only works for ideal conditions.
Try their Blueprint office and Racing demo. You will notice it right away.
For vegitation, you have to use CSM as baked vegitation shadows look horrible, even at 2k lightmaps.
But if you have more than 40~50 trees(moving trees, not static ones), warning window pops up, saying "this may cause huge performance hit, try reducing the number of dynamic objects".
So, if you are going to use CSM for a desktop project, You can make some level blueprint nodes so that when you are indoor, you only use baked lightmaps, but when you are outside, you use CSM.
But, even then, you can`t have enough dynamic vegitation to make your level look vivid due to the reasons above.


For a mobile project like the one I`m working on, you don`t need all the power Cryengine has.
But UE is still really static. Even if they adopt LPV, the biggest bottleneck would be performance for dynamic objects. I used UDK in the past. I`m surprised that they still haven`t fixed that problem.
Maybe it`s really difficult to fix...

Both UE and Cryengine are powerful in their own domain. Looks like you are biased against Cryengine a little bit, which is totally understandable. UE has better tools and workflow. But,, for serious desktop games, UE still has got some catching up to do.

On a side note, I heard from unreal twitch that a member of their rendering team quit last week.
User avatar   Trainee TraineeMember since: 18.01.2014, 12:36Posts: 112Location: Gangnam, Seoul, Korea Likes: 36
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 01.08.2014, 07:03 
While I don`t particularly find Crytkek`s eaas approach favorable over UE`s, I don`t think Eaas is a bad deal.
If you think about it, all we ever wanted was a permission from Crytek to sell our own games.
User avatar   Skilled Modder Skilled ModderMember since: 12.02.2008, 15:34Posts: 640Location: Turkey-Ankara Likes: 150
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 01.08.2014, 08:29 
I want give the link to it but they haven't uploaded last night's twich still to their official channels. It was a reply to a question towards the end of the stream. When I heard that Marketing Manager Lady ( forgot her name :D ) said " Yes it will be coming officially with 4.5 according to our wish to create large playable worlds."

I was like " Wait ! WTF did I just heard ??! " And searched quite a bit. It seems just like DieByZero said. The future is there as a WIP. You can unlock it by a console command and it even has variables for you to tweak it. Even there is a Blueprint for rotating the sky.

Of course it is not as high quality as CryEngine. But breaking out of that static structure would be a tremendous milestone for UE. Two days ago I had tried to "build" an example level at " production quality". It took a whole night :D

Right now as far as I know CryEngine uses a double bounce ambient + IBM + RLR for general purposes. UE4 has a single bounce, and the rest it dependent on materials. If you know well about these technical details would somebody please explain these ? :D


User avatar   Trained Modder Trained ModderMember since: 08.09.2004, 00:14Posts: 225Location: netherlands Likes: 33
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 01.08.2014, 10:46 
Quote by tothespace:
While I don`t particularly find Crytkek`s eaas approach favorable over UE`s, I don`t think Eaas is a bad deal.
If you think about it, all we ever wanted was a permission from Crytek to sell our own games.


And right now, anybody just anybody who can produce a decent working oculus Dk2 demo/game and sells it for 5 euro will be a milionair soon!

Because right now, there is absolutely no content

And everybody knows: Content is King.

Btw: today I am going to show my game to the world (it can be bought for 5 euro :0)
User avatar   Skilled Modder Skilled ModderMember since: 12.02.2008, 15:34Posts: 640Location: Turkey-Ankara Likes: 150
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 01.08.2014, 11:00 
Quote by game_master_jodan:
Quote by tothespace:
While I don`t particularly find Crytkek`s eaas approach favorable over UE`s, I don`t think Eaas is a bad deal.
If you think about it, all we ever wanted was a permission from Crytek to sell our own games.


And right now, anybody just anybody who can produce a decent working oculus Dk2 demo/game and sells it for 5 euro will be a milionair soon!

Because right now, there is absolutely no content

And everybody knows: Content is King.

Btw: today I am going to show my game to the world (it can be bought for 5 euro :0)



If that wasn't sarcasm can you at least give us a link or something to check out your game ?


User avatar   Trainee TraineeMember since: 18.01.2014, 12:36Posts: 112Location: Gangnam, Seoul, Korea Likes: 36
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine Switching to Real Time GI ?
PostPosted 01.08.2014, 11:45 
I don`t think that was sarcasm. :)
I really wish they would improve their GI solution.
Like you said, there is a console variable you can change.
I know it is still an experimental feature,,, but it is too slow..
Have you tried the first person shooter demo? With baked maps, it ran at 90~100 fps at high settings(I7 4770k, radeon 7970). But when I turned on the LPV, it dropped to 40~50, sometimes even 30. The worst part is, with some AIs running around, it got even worse.
4.5 is only 2 months away,, I wonder if they are even considering it.
The reason I keep mentioning about this is because,, UDK had the same exact problem(bad performance for dynamic objects with moving shadows). :happy:
But I`ll check out that twitch after work. :) Thanks for letting us know.


I tried their distance AO a few days ago. turned out It has lots of limitations. And the performance wasn`t good either,,, :)(slightly better than their experimental LPV).

I think the engine will remain static for a while since they are targeting for mobile and console markets this time. :)) I bet that`s what Tim Sweeny had in mind in the first place.

Btw, IBM is image based material, right? what is RLR? I`m new to Cryengine. I don`t know exactly how their GI works. I just put environment probes where needed and put extra lights where environment probes can`t reach. Is there anything else to do other than that? :)