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User avatar   Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 14.03.2008, 21:31Posts: 1743Status: Online Likes: 28
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 10.07.2011, 13:14 
Quote by Bladestar:
hey Thomy...quick question on lights...
any idea on how many dynamic lights the new engine can handle in one scene or within veiwing distance of each other?


Thousands.
In the scenes set up for "Let's tile those lights" I used about 150-200.
I might investigate where the barrier for a playable game lies with the upcoming articles.

But if you want a good framerate it really depends on how much they intersect with each other and how big they are (also geometry is of an issue because of specularity if I'm not mistaken)
With tiles, the number of lights to be used can be increased easily with good performance.

If you switch from deferred lights to irradiance volumes you are really free to use as many as you want, but the visual output won't be "as good" as with usual lights. As said i'll do an article on that if I find the time.



  Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 17.06.2009, 12:26Posts: 1941Location: South Africa Likes: 0
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 10.07.2011, 13:15 
awesome..thanks Thomy!
User avatar   Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 14.03.2008, 21:31Posts: 1743Status: Online Likes: 28
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 10.07.2011, 13:19 
let me specify that.
If you have up to 300 it will give you good performance. After that - a sudden drop. On a solid.
Just tried that out :)
From 280 to 300 the framerate drops significantly.
280 lights - 50 fps (without any lights i have 52)
300 lights - 10 fps and below


User avatar   Trained Modder Trained ModderMember since: 08.03.2006, 18:37Posts: 330 Likes: 0
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 10.07.2011, 13:22 
Better versions of that face promo shot (with correct colors):

Image

Image

One more legendary pic, for old times' sake:

Image
User avatar   Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 14.03.2008, 21:31Posts: 1743Status: Online Likes: 28
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 10.07.2011, 14:18 
thanks, Mocib! Just updated the article with one of yours. :happy:

Hope ya'll like the read :)


  Trainee TraineeMember since: 12.02.2011, 00:13Posts: 147 Likes: 0
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 10.07.2011, 18:40 
Picture what I did. I know its different scene, just out of curiosity
Image
User avatar   Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 14.03.2008, 21:31Posts: 1743Status: Online Likes: 28
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 11.07.2011, 15:36 
@Konigg
The thing is - this technique is quite new and when Crytek did the trailer from which you took the screen, they probably did not have it yet.
But if you have Sandbox 3 you can toggle the techniques on the same character.


  Beginner BeginnerMember since: 26.03.2011, 23:25Posts: 92Location: Berlin Likes: 2
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 12.07.2011, 01:45 
The link to the From s^2 to s^5 in the first post is broken. Always leads me onto the 2nd site - GI article.

Please check.


Other than that - oh my god, this technical stuff & how to use it is what I always was interested in! Keep them coming! I dont know about what but just do it, hahaha. :-D
User avatar   Superstar Dolphin Superstar DolphinMember since: 16.08.2004, 10:46Posts: 9828Location: Finland Likes: 161
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 12.07.2011, 12:58 
Very interesting articles, once again. :) The GI is a very nice visual addition to outdoor lighting, even if it has (huge) flaws. Without GI, all shaded areas have a uniform ambience... This works OK for outdoors (Crysis) but it would be nice to have some way of simulating those low-frequency shadows you get from sunlight. I'd take even pre-rendered shadowmaps - technically calculating Terrain Occlusion does this, but it isn't very accurate and really only works for foliage shadows on terrain, not so good for brushes such as bridges, tunnels or canopies, for example.

For indoors, it would be very useful to have GI enabled for lightsources other than the sun. This is probably the best advantage of the Frostbite 2 engine GI system over CE3. The Crytek rendering tech article that described their light propagation volumes technique did mention that reflective shadowmaps are rendered for all lightsources - yet this feature was dropped from Crysis 2, and there's not even a console variable to enable GI for all lights. I guess they decided to use Irradiance Volumes for indoors instead - performance advantage is significant in that case. ;)

Quote by Thomy:
But if you want a good framerate it really depends on how much they intersect with each other and how big they are (also geometry is of an issue because of specularity if I'm not mistaken)


I think deferred rendering uses a single pass for most materials regardless of specularity - Crysis 2 has significantly fewer shaders than Crysis did (notice the lack of Metal shader) probably precisely because they want to cut down on multiple render passes required for different shaders. Shiny materials such as metals and diffuse materials such as stone are all rendered in a single pass, because they both use the Illum shader - differences are only in specular glossiness and amount, which are calculated in a single specular render target. ;) This narrows down material options such as anisotropy, but the metal surfaces in Crysis 2 look very nice anyway, mainly thanks to Environment Probes. :)
  Trainee TraineeMember since: 12.02.2011, 00:13Posts: 147 Likes: 0
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 12.07.2011, 18:29 
Quote by the_grim:
For indoors, it would be very useful to have GI enabled for lightsources other than the sun. This is probably the best advantage of the Frostbite 2 engine GI system over CE3. The Crytek rendering tech article that described their light propagation volumes technique did mention that reflective shadowmaps are rendered for all lightsources - yet this feature was dropped from Crysis 2, and there's not even a console variable to enable GI for all lights. I guess they decided to use Irradiance Volumes for indoors instead - performance advantage is significant in that case. ;)

But Frostbite 2 is new engine, CE 3 is 5 years old improved CE 2 and is almost comparable with FB 2
User avatar   Skilled Modder Skilled ModderMember since: 15.04.2008, 13:25Posts: 728Location: Russia, MoskowStatus: Online Likes: 18
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 12.07.2011, 21:04 
Frostbite 2.0 - imho have legacy from Frostbite 1.5 And the latest news about "no mod tools for Battlefield3 because of overcomplicated toolset of Frostbite 2" - also points on that, frostbite 1.5 has same overcomplicated workflow.


Last edited by Lex4art on 13.07.2011, 12:19, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar   Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 14.03.2008, 21:31Posts: 1743Status: Online Likes: 28
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 13.07.2011, 01:12 
@Megagoth : Thanks - fixed that!

well guys, don't get overexcited about frostbite 2.0 yet.
If you look at MP footage, that really isn't a Crysis 2 killer from what I've seen.
And besides, yes the lighting looks great, but it has to be precalculated and works only on big static geometry, which actually has to be modified first; dynamic objects do NOT reflect lighting.
Sure - image quality is suberb, but "realtime all the time" is nice to have in CE3.
It does not really work with destruction, which they admitted themselves, but who knows - they might have a fix for that when it comes out. Probably just a workaround which the average gamer doesn't notice.
Well, I will admit that they have a lot of money for research and DICE really gets pumped by EA, which wants to have a powerful inhouse engine.
But there is nothing special, besides some translucency and of course the geomerics global illumination technology, but if Crytek wanted some 3rd Party in CryEngine, they could licence it, too, just like DICE did.


User avatar   Hardcore Modder Hardcore ModderMember since: 25.12.2008, 08:07Posts: 849 Likes: 0
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 13.07.2011, 04:08 
We also don't know how often will Crytek update the indie SDK. Hopefully monthly like UDK.
  Beginner BeginnerMember since: 11.02.2011, 12:44Posts: 14 Likes: 0
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 17.07.2011, 17:27 
duuuuuuuuuuuuuuude!do you know how cool you are?XD

man,i love this post,really appreciated!Thomy

and,please please,Thomy,Make more!
User avatar   Beginner BeginnerMember since: 22.09.2010, 16:12Posts: 94Location: Australia Likes: 0
 

 Post Topic: Re: CE 3 Tech you might not know about [article series] - Pa
PostPosted 18.07.2011, 20:11 
I too am so interested, amazed and appreciative of the improvements and new technologies Crytek's rnD department brought to Cryengine 3, and was so glad to see them implement them into Crysis 2 even when they finished them after C2's release. They really are a good bunch of dedicated people, and I mean the whole of Crytek.

I loved your original post Thomy, extremely well done! I've been up late using CE3 and browsing Crymod, I've just read your original post so far, going to bed right after I submit this comment, and I look so forward to reading your other posts tommorow (which is now today lol).