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User avatar   Hardcore Modder Hardcore ModderMember since: 28.10.2007, 15:25Posts: 844Location: Denmark Likes: 1
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 24.05.2012, 14:22 
It's hard to make a truly general purpose engine too. Even Unreal and CryEngine are first and foremost FPS engines. You can hack them into being something else, but something like the SupCom engine for example is architected specifically for thousands of RTS units, and that's just not doable with these other engines.

User avatar   Has no life Has no lifeMember since: 11.07.2008, 20:25Posts: 11740Location: Nottingham, UK Likes: 90
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 24.05.2012, 16:55 
Quote by BmB:
It's hard to make a truly general purpose engine too. Even Unreal and CryEngine are first and foremost FPS engines. You can hack them into being something else, but something like the SupCom engine for example is architected specifically for thousands of RTS units, and that's just not doable with these other engines.

No idea for Unreal, but what on earth makes CryENGINE primarily an FPS engine? I think people are failing to make a distinction between the provided sample, which is based on the Crysis codebase, and the engine itself.

As a personal anecdote, we're creating an Angry Birds clone in CE3 and I've never said to myself "if only the engine didn't force me into creating an FPS..."


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User avatar   Superstar Dolphin Superstar DolphinMember since: 16.08.2004, 10:46Posts: 9884Location: Finland Likes: 189
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 24.05.2012, 17:33 
Quote by Cry-Ruan:
No idea for Unreal, but what on earth makes CryENGINE primarily an FPS engine? I think people are failing to make a distinction between the provided sample, which is based on the Crysis codebase, and the engine itself.

The engine doesn't strictly limit games to the FPS genre, but if you want to deviate much from it there are quite a lot of restricions: arbitrary limitations regarding world size and terrain precision, general model precision, physics accuracy are some of the first that come into mind (all of which already limit even some FPS projects). ;)
User avatar   Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 27.02.2009, 12:51Posts: 1542 Likes: 56
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 24.05.2012, 17:42 
Quote by the_grim:
Quote by Cry-Ruan:
No idea for Unreal, but what on earth makes CryENGINE primarily an FPS engine? I think people are failing to make a distinction between the provided sample, which is based on the Crysis codebase, and the engine itself.

The engine doesn't strictly limit games to the FPS genre, but if you want to deviate much from it there are quite a lot of restricions: arbitrary limitations regarding world size and terrain precision, general model precision, physics accuracy are some of the first that come into mind (all of which already limit even some FPS projects). ;)

I agree about world size. It can be really limiting factor when you want to make massive game (and lack of collaboration work in Sandbox, when multiple people can work on single map). I think in future such feature (Collaborative map creation) will be deal breaker for games. Maps get bigger and more complicated you just can't work alone on them to full extent (well you can but it take to much time). But when multiple people can work on single map..

Rest of it (model precision, physics) are not that important. Unless you are making some kind of simulator.
Stock UE and CE are ready to use for RTS, RPG, Platformers, Arcade racing/battle games.

The only thing I can think that those engine cannot be used without heavy modification are semi-realistic racing games, flying simulators and so on, because they really need specialized mechanics for these things.


Anyway. People tend to judge what engine can be used for by:
1. Code Sample
2. Games that company which created engine developed.

That's sad most of them is not able to think outside box.


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User avatar   Superstar Dolphin Superstar DolphinMember since: 16.08.2004, 10:46Posts: 9884Location: Finland Likes: 189
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 24.05.2012, 17:51 
Quote by iniside:
Rest of it (model precision, physics) are not that important. Unless you are making some kind of simulator.

Yeah but those are important factors which currently are only suitable for games with a similar scale as your regular FPS. If you want to make a flight simulator (yeah I know you did mention that :P), the coordinate imprecision and the limited world size (with physics disappearing beyond an arbitrary range/height etc) is a deal breaker. On the other end of the scale, if you want to make a small-scale physics game in which you play in a small world but need to manipulate accurately for example very thin objects, you're bound to have intersecting geometry and objects falling through surfaces etc.
User avatar   Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 27.02.2009, 12:51Posts: 1542 Likes: 56
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 24.05.2012, 18:06 
Yes. But bear in mind you are talking about very specific cases. Most of games just do not need such conditions.
Regardless if they are FPS, RPG, or simple arcade tanks shooting at each other.

In other cases you replace systems of engine that are not suitable for you.

And I agreed with you about world size :P
The current one in CE3 is just way to silly (small).
And I also agree terrain system should completely replaced. But oh well. I've saying this since public release. I hope you guys at Crytek working on it. Because it ridiculous to keep 8 years old system ;p.


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User avatar   Skilled Modder Skilled ModderMember since: 15.04.2008, 13:25Posts: 759Location: Russia, Moskow Likes: 34
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 24.05.2012, 19:31 
Quote:
I think in future such feature (Collaborative map creation) will be deal breaker for games.

+1, realy cool feature since first Garrys MOD meetings with frends XD. Hope someone-someday will made it more dev-featured.

About some CE3 limitations - if you buy licence ists still possible get rid of some problems (not all, but at least map size can be expanded; live example is ArchAge - upcoming AAA mmo with large seamless world. Don't know how many man-hours was spended to make it possible, but still way faster than write own engine.

About universal engines - with current gen, [s]profit[/s] multiplatform oriented its hard (2005 year hardware limits, hell yeah + same old DX9) , even Frostbite 2 have a lot of limits (no dynamic time of day for example - even Enlighten tech allows it for last 4-5 years, but console hardware - not). Maybe an game-devs make brand new engine/game targeted on maximum quality without any multiplatform features - something like DX11+ x64-only - that way is possible create universal engine, but amount of profit will be lower than multiplatform solutions - can western psihology allow this? :whistle: Will see ...


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User avatar   Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 14.03.2008, 21:31Posts: 1760 Likes: 38
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 24.05.2012, 19:49 
let me just get into the licensing thing:

Mass Effect, Gears of War, Borderlands, Bioshock, Batman Arkham Asylum - all of these games have taken top spots in the last years when it comes to sales, quality and budget, but there are countless other titles using the Unreal Engine.

Never before have so many developers decided to utilize external tools.
StarBreeze has been a studio known for their own tools, the Chronicles of **** were praised in highest tones for the technology used. Yet they licensed the Unreal Engine.
Many, many others did so as well.

When asked why Free Radical failed so badly with "Haze" they said it was due to them trying to develop their own engine for the PS3, afterwards they said licensing would have been the better choice.

Yes, there have been titles based on foreign engines before, but never has id Tech III (Quake) supported as many games as unreal Engine has. And back then, there was not a whole lot of competition.

Now games feature Unreal, Id Tech 4, Trinity, Vision, Unity, (CryEngine)...

Just look at the sales list of games prior to 2006 and try to find games that did NOT use their own engine. The numbers are really few in comparison.


User avatar   Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 20.01.2009, 14:25Posts: 1915 Likes: 10
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 24.05.2012, 22:04 
Quote by qbert39:
Quote by the_grim:
As nobody has really mentioned those Unreal Engine 3 titles qbert39 asked, I took the liberty to collect a short list by quick googling. I'm only mentioning well-known titles that have been / will be released in 2012 or 2013:

Asura's Wrath
Aliens: Colonial Marines
BioShock Infinite
Blacklight: Retribution
DmC: Devil May Cry
Game of Thrones
Lost Planet 3
Mass Effect 3
Silent Hill: Downpour
TERA
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater HD
XCOM
XCOM: Enemy Unknown

That's only the most well-known franchises. If you added the rest of the to-be-released titles in 2012 to the list, it would have something like 5-10 more names. Not to mention the twenty or so titles released in 2011.

Engine licensing is far from being dead. ;)


umm I said AAA games


No, you didn't. Sorry.

And I seriously doubt Epic cares -- AAA or not, they still get paid.
  Trained Modder Trained ModderMember since: 11.06.2010, 05:05Posts: 255 Likes: 2
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 24.05.2012, 22:54 
Quote by Zurginator:
Quote by qbert39:
Quote by the_grim:
As nobody has really mentioned those Unreal Engine 3 titles qbert39 asked, I took the liberty to collect a short list by quick googling. I'm only mentioning well-known titles that have been / will be released in 2012 or 2013:

Asura's Wrath
Aliens: Colonial Marines
BioShock Infinite
Blacklight: Retribution
DmC: Devil May Cry
Game of Thrones
Lost Planet 3
Mass Effect 3
Silent Hill: Downpour
TERA
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater HD
XCOM
XCOM: Enemy Unknown

That's only the most well-known franchises. If you added the rest of the to-be-released titles in 2012 to the list, it would have something like 5-10 more names. Not to mention the twenty or so titles released in 2011.

Engine licensing is far from being dead. ;)


umm I said AAA games


No, you didn't. Sorry.

And I seriously doubt Epic cares -- AAA or not, they still get paid.


oh yes I, did

I said this

So Onion if Unreal is so dominate then lets hear that huge list of new AAA games being made with the Unreal Engine. :rolleyes:


yea and EPIC did get paid :whatever:
User avatar   Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 27.02.2009, 12:51Posts: 1542 Likes: 56
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 24.05.2012, 23:06 
So. Bioshock, TERA, LP3, are not AAA games ?
You are kidding right ?


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  Trained Modder Trained ModderMember since: 11.06.2010, 05:05Posts: 255 Likes: 2
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 24.05.2012, 23:28 
Quote by iniside:
So. Bioshock, TERA, LP3, are not AAA games ?
You are kidding right ?


we went thru this already, no need to repeat what i said earlier, just scroll up :whistle:
  Skilled Modder Skilled ModderMember since: 17.08.2011, 23:44Posts: 620Location: Hastings County, Ontario, Canada Likes: 21
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 25.05.2012, 04:57 
Wait wait wait. Lost Planet 3 isn't being powered by MT? What?

Quote by Thomy:
When asked why Free Radical failed so badly with "Haze" they said it was due to them trying to develop their own engine for the PS3, afterwards they said licensing would have been the better choice.


Given all its glitches though, HAZE was still your typical FRD game -- solid gunplay, great dialogue and above all, well-made, even if it was unfinished.


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User avatar   Uber Modder Uber ModderMember since: 20.01.2009, 14:25Posts: 1915 Likes: 10
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 26.05.2012, 07:13 
OK, let's go another way --- What AAA games in 2013 are being developed on proprietary engines?
User avatar   Hardcore Modder Hardcore ModderMember since: 28.10.2007, 15:25Posts: 844Location: Denmark Likes: 1
 

 Post Topic: Re: Unreal Engine 4
PostPosted 26.05.2012, 09:00 
Bungie's new thing for starters. 2012 sees Arma III and Planetside 2 running on their own engines. Additionally Assassin's Creed, Starcraft, Halo and Hitman continue to run on their own engines. While Metal Gear Rising is getting a new engine entirely.
XCOM, GTAV, GW2, pretty much everything coming out of Nintendo.

Proprietary engines are hardly dead. And they never will be because they can do specialized things Unreal simply can't.


Last edited by BmB on 26.05.2012, 09:25, edited 1 time in total.